Having paid close attention to SoundCloud rap 1.0 but then missed the era after, I feel like I will never fully catch up to missing digicore in 2020. I know other people who feel the same. As a non-native to the scene, I have accepted my permanent outside status. Although I've been hyped to cover some of the action here on Finals with H.D. Angel's [The Browser](https://finals.blog/?category=The%20Browser) column and recent articles by Mars/Maria Kate.  

Through being on discord, however, and getting to know Gen Z people online, and with help from [No Bells](https://nobells.blog/) I have done some knowledge. So I made the playlist below for people who either slept on this stuff too, or are looking for a nostalgic walk down memory lane. I hope I have approximated what [Maria wrote here](https://finals.blog/posts/blackwinterwells-on-her-new-album-anime-and-catching-the-drain-flu), a time that saw *"the fusion of hyperpop and SoundCloud rap, which transformed what had been swirling as “the scene” or “the underground” into a genre some call digicore and others hesitate to put a name on."* 

I also hope that I have put together a selection that shows WHY major labels swooped in on this tidepool of music, which they did, selecting mainly cis men as the crossover stars from a scene that was pioneered significantly by trans and femme people, and people of color. They swooped in because the music was so strong, so full of life, so pissed, so emo, so what's-next-in-rap, and like SC rap v. 1, so suburbs-facing and directly connecting with fans that it required very little extra positioning in the marketplace. It was already hitting. Majors made choices to boost Glaive, midwxst and ericdoa based on quality (all very talented) and perceived marketability, purposely/inadvertently corresponding to what resonates with society's typical isms and phobias. 

The music changed after that. The scene-building posse cuts went away, and several people pivoted to indie pop. There is still momentum in digicore (or whatever its name is), still vital URL fests, still albums that rank with the best of what's out period. But the early phase seems like a bygone era. I will personally remember it as a glitchy, sparkling creative burst that made me believe in music again. Even retrospectively it gives me a feeling that I need sometimes when music feels stale and I'm forced to listen to old stuff (always a good move BTW) but then someone picks up the baton and shows us something worth diving into.  

<iframe style="border-radius:12px" src="https://open.spotify.com/embed/playlist/6joxem2aWG92bLa9utwL9X?utm_source=generator" width="100%" height="380" frameBorder="0" allowfullscreen="" allow="autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; fullscreen; picture-in-picture"></iframe>

thumbnail_Screen Shot 2022-05-04 at 11.42.49 AM.png

Screen Shot 2022-05-04 at 11.42.49 AM.png

Finals Best of Digicore 2020

holly

![wells1.jpg](https://finals.blog/api/uploads/wells1_efec87e981.jpg)

Fresh off this recent [Dani Kiyoko chat](https://finals.blog/posts/Checking-In-With-Dani-Kiyoko), we're back with another artist interview from Mars/Maria Kate! Thank you for this convo with the underground legend Wells!

-Andrew

--

Back in early 2020, the Covid-19 pandemic forced young people to be online and indoors even more than they already were, and one result was new music genres popped off from artists' bedrooms. Most notable was the fusion of hyperpop and SoundCloud rap, which transformed what had been swirling as “the scene” or “the underground” into a genre some call digicore and others hesitate to put a name on. 25-year-old blackwinterwells quickly dominated that space with her icy verses and crystalized production.

Two years later, she’s creating new soundscapes with each release and breaking out of the underground (and her bedroom). She’s got an upcoming US tour with fishnarc and 8485. She’s also releasing Crystal Shards, her newest project. We spoke over the phone about her artistic journey, upcoming tour, RuneScape, TikTok, and the drain flu. We got pretty off topic towards the end, but here’s that conversation transcribed below.

![wells.jpg](https://finals.blog/api/uploads/wells_ce5391a28b.jpg)

<iframe width="100%" height="300" scrolling="no" frameborder="no" allow="autoplay" src="https://w.soundcloud.com/player/?url=https%3A//api.soundcloud.com/playlists/1430824471&color=%23ff5500&auto_play=false&hide_related=false&show_comments=true&show_user=true&show_reposts=false&show_teaser=true&visual=true"></iframe><div style="font-size: 10px; color: #cccccc;line-break: anywhere;word-break: normal;overflow: hidden;white-space: nowrap;text-overflow: ellipsis; font-family: Interstate,Lucida Grande,Lucida Sans Unicode,Lucida Sans,Garuda,Verdana,Tahoma,sans-serif;font-weight: 100;"><a href="https://soundcloud.com/blackwinterwells" title="blackwinterwells" target="_blank" style="color: #cccccc; text-decoration: none;">blackwinterwells</a> · <a href="https://soundcloud.com/blackwinterwells/sets/crystal-shards" title="Crystal Shards" target="_blank" style="color: #cccccc; text-decoration: none;">Crystal Shards</a></div>

**What makes your new album different than what you were making previously?**

To me, this album kind of feels like a mission statement regarding all of my previous music. I kind of have plans for what I’m going to do next. This is capping off the era of wavy, glassy, autotune stuff. It’s like, that was the blackwinterwells sound. This is the big thesis statement on that. Everything after that is going to be fucked up and weird. I needed to put out a big cohesive project of the sparkly shit before I move on from it. This is the blackwinterwells album and the next album will be some weird and fucked up shit, and I don’t know if people are going to like it. 

**What do you mean weird and fucked up?**
 
That one is like, kind of emo, kind of melancholy, shiny, that sort of vibe. The next album, I want to be really dark, nasty, angry and violent. Like this is the high point. And it’s going to dive bomb into something dismal after that.

**You really have that pinpointed down.**

I kind of look at music like visual art. Like, the art I find just as important as the music. Not more important, because if it was more important I'd be a painter! I’m trying to paint a picture with the music. All of the other things I want to do are pictures I haven’t painted yet. This one is like this weird, sci-fi object coming from space. It's cosmic and out there. What I want to do next is digging down, like we’re going to hell. Going to different places and feelings is interesting. I see it in my head when I listen to it!

**Do you make the cover art?**

Once in a blue moon. For a single sometimes, but an album I would never. I need someone who knows how to use their hands. Eighty did the cover for Stone Ocean, and a ton of my other art. I really like the watercolor vibe. Paint is a cool medium for me, it’s very impressionistic rather than illustration which is more concrete. I like things that are mushy and imprecise but point to a feeling. I’d like to get people who are good at painting to do my art. John Stobie at Eyeball Records did the art, its painting-esque. The Sulfur cover had some photography elements in it as well. For this whole Crystal Shards arc, he’s doing most of the sci-fi visualization. It’s like, Arrival vibes. Like the big giant oval that ascends from space and everyone’s like “what the fuck is that!” 

**How has everything changed since [Stone Ocean](https://soundcloud.com/blackwinterwells/sets/ocean)? **

I feel like Stone Ocean is a pretty blue album. Crystal Shards is a blue album, but blue in different ways. Crystal Shards is very hard and rocky. I mean Stone Ocean has rocks too, but it’s very flowy and watery sounding like you’re sinking. Crystal Shards is like, I’m being stabbed in the face with glass! Ouch! I actually have the Stone Ocean painting in my room right now. It’s framed! I’m looking directly at it. Eighty is just so good at all the visual stuff! She can paint, she can draw. She has a very good eye for it. I can give her a song and be like! Here. Make art for this. It’s perfect every time!

**You've got a tour coming up don't you?**

That’s true! A US tour. Unfortunately, no Canada stops. Maybe some will be added. I’m going to go to some places I’ve never been, and some I’ve been to already!

**How did that all come together?** 

Me and fishnarc are pretty good buds. He was just tapping in the scene and hitting up people to make some music. He was like, I want to make a song with quinn, I want to make a song with kuru, I want to make a song with eighty. He and I work really well together, and he and eighty work well together. We click on a creative level. The songs that we made happened so naturally and we get along very well. He was just like; I’m putting together a tour. Do you guys want to come with me? And I was like fuck yeah! It’s also a dream come true, because I started writing lyrics when Peep died.

**fishnarc is interesting because he kind of transcended the 2016 SoundCloud era into today’s sound.** 

In the wave of this whole, heaven forbid I say the word. In the advent of this higher energy more electronic version of singing songwriting music, everyone and their dog is trying to hop on it. Anyone who can look at what’s going on and take inspiration to do something interesting and original, that’s dope! All of my friends are pulling from different places. When music is interesting to me, it’s doing something new. It’s not this pop funny snare drum bullshit that everyone’s doing. I am tired of that sound. Like, I’m dedicating my whole life to ripping off “Money Machine.” Like go for a walk, look at a tree! I have a lot of friends who came from the EDM sphere and now are doing cool shit. I have a friend who went to college and did jazz and was in a rock band, and now he’s doing autotune shit and it sounds crazy good. It sounds like nothing else and that’s what I appreciate. That’s a pretty long-winded way of saying I like Wicca Phase and fishnarc’s music.

<iframe width="100%" height="300" scrolling="no" frameborder="no" allow="autoplay" src="https://w.soundcloud.com/player/?url=https%3A//api.soundcloud.com/tracks/874651078&color=%23ff5500&auto_play=false&hide_related=false&show_comments=true&show_user=true&show_reposts=false&show_teaser=true&visual=true"></iframe><div style="font-size: 10px; color: #cccccc;line-break: anywhere;word-break: normal;overflow: hidden;white-space: nowrap;text-overflow: ellipsis; font-family: Interstate,Lucida Grande,Lucida Sans Unicode,Lucida Sans,Garuda,Verdana,Tahoma,sans-serif;font-weight: 100;"><a href="https://soundcloud.com/lilpaprika" title="paprika☆" target="_blank" style="color: #cccccc; text-decoration: none;">paprika☆</a> · <a href="https://soundcloud.com/lilpaprika/garbage-w-blackwinterwells-prod-blackwinterwells" title="garbage w/ blackwinterwells (prod. blackwinterwells)" target="_blank" style="color: #cccccc; text-decoration: none;">garbage w/ blackwinterwells (prod. blackwinterwells)</a></div>

**One of my favorite features from you is “garbage” with Paprika. What’s your favorite feature you’ve ever done?**

That’s one of those funny underwater beats. I love that one. Usually, my favorites are the newest ones I’ve done. Like, I did this one with kennedyxoxo where I’m just like doing a pop punk sad thing and that was fun. A lot of the stuff I’ve been doing lately where I’m just saying a whole bunch of things and rapping are fun. I did this one verse on a kuru song where I’m just rapping fast as hell and the bars are wacky! There’s this bit in the middle where I’m just like “I feel like crazy frog” and it’s just like my favorite song I’ve ever worked on. I keep harassing him to release it.
 
**Shit, I’ll start harassing him to release it too!** 

I keep calling it “crazy frog”. I don’t think he wants to drop a song called “crazy frog” but no one else can come up with a name for it. I think it’s super emotional to make a song called crazy frog. There’s also a lot of features I’ve done on songs that aren’t that popular that I just went crazy on. Like chance by idiot. There’s this one bit I did after beating this giant dragon in RuneScape called Galvek. Like, fuck that dragon! My flow on it is so good. I said “I’ll kill you like I killed Galvek. and it only took two minutes!” Also, sorry for coughing. I got the drain flu. 

**The what?**

I’ve been calling it the drain flu. Bladee went on tour and now everyone has it. I left and I’ve been sick ever since! I kind of didn’t have fun though. I really don’t like his fanbase. There’s a lot of mean girls! I was at the front of the barricade and this girl kept pushing me. When I tried to get my spot back, she was like “you can’t do that”! I was like, what do you mean! Any time I’m at a show and it’s a bunch of chubby dudes in all black, I know I’m safe. Like I’m not dying in that mosh pit. If there’s a bunch of people in rainbow clothing, I know I’m dying in that pit. People who listen to screamo are way nicer, I guess it’s because it’s a smaller community. 

**There’s been a lot of conflict in the community about representation. Do you have any thoughts on that?**

I mean it’s no surprise that labels like to sign straight people. They are more likely to pay attention to you. In most industries, if you’re transgender it’s hard to get anywhere. I’m not going around kicking rocks or anything, but I understand why people feel like the narrative has been pulled in a weird direction because of it. The face of the movement is significantly less female when like, there is a lot of that! I don’t really think it's right to blame artists, it’s not really anyone’s fault. People need money to survive, and if you are a musician, I’m not going to tell anyone they’re a piece of shit for paying their parents’ mortgage. In a perfect world, labels would be different than they are. There are so many things about the way that money shapes art in its own direction. If every artist had a billion dollars to do whatever they want, art would be better! I personally just feel grateful to be in the situation I’m in having sacrificed zero artistic integrity. I’m not having to rip anyone off or make Yeat type beats. I can just sit on my computer and make a weird ass thing that no one has ever made and people like it. I personally don’t feel slighted by the industry. Regardless of all the horrible things happening in the world, I try to be a positive influence to the people around me. 

**My grandma always used to say “we can’t control what happens, only how we react to it.”**

I try to be grandma-esque. Gotta get the potassium! You don’t even need to be eating fruit! Bananas are good but you can get Potassium from other places. I have such strong food opinions. 

**What’s your favorite food?**

My favorite food is probably Ramen. I had this crazy ramen after playing two shows for anamanaguchi. It was two am and I kind of fucked up. There were six pork slices. I was eating it at 2 am, but no regrets because it was delicious. I woke up and went to church with my friend Peter the next day. It was a good weekend because I witnessed some Catholic stuff I had never witnessed. I’m just sitting there and they are waving incense and chanting and I’m just like, this is awesome! Respect for ritual. 

**You tweeted “What’s your favorite song on the EP? Mine is cyanide." Why?**

I’m just a sucker for songs with no drums. Like “Falling Up” barely has any drums, “Take Loop” doesn’t have any drums. I think the reason I like “Cyanide” the most is because it sounds like this other EP I’m planning. I want it to sound like you’re standing on a cliff and the wind is whipping on your face. “Cyanide” sounds like that. “Sulfur” is sort of a descent. It starts at this fluffy note and the songs slow down and the end is in this pit of melancholy. The other EP is kind of the opposite. It starts at an airy part, and then the oxygen is thin. I guess I’m making altitude music lately.

**You could make some insane music videos.**

If I had the budget, I’d be making some crazy films. I like concepts, I like ideas. I like funny art.
I’m expecting some amazing art for the "crazy frog" song. I’m sure it’s just going to be a picture of Kuru looking away from the camera in a $900 jacket. It’s going to be awesome. 

**Are you in college?**

I dropped out of high school! 

**Wait, how old are you?**

I’m 25. I’m a late bloomer for real. I was making total garbage when I was 16. That shit was ass.

**You have to make the shit music to get to the good stuff.** 

You would think! But then Glaive made music for like two days and became Glaive, so.

**Some people are just built different.** 

I’m being harsh! I put out a pretty good EP when I was 17. Anthony Fantano tweeted out a link. He probably deleted it though. I can’t find the tweet! He definitely deleted hella tweets. I don’t feel too bad about it though, there’s evidence. There are still people replying to it. Do you like anime?

**I used to watch it a ton. Do you like it?**

I’m rewatching Kill La Kill today. It’s about this girl who’s trying to figure out who murdered her dad. All the clothes give them superpowers and she’s trying to get to the top. I also finished Cowboy Bepop for the first time. It’s #1. It became my favorite pretty quickly, it’s very emotional!

**Is that the one that everyone on twitter uses as their profile picture?**

Yeah. He’s constantly smoking in that show. There’s a lot of moments of him looking cool smoking a cigarette. I’m like wow! He’s just like me. Except I don’t smoke anymore because I got covid. I’m testing negative now but I tested positive on April Fools! I’ve been coughing since then, but I still managed to play two shows. It hasn’t impacted my ability to sing! I just feel like shit.

(This is where things went off the rails and we started singing TikTok sounds)

TikTok dude! My TikTok is all cooking videos. It’s fire. I’ve been singing the same song for like ten years. There are no vocals. I just sing some xylophone parts.

**Make it into something!**

I should sample it. There’s this other ambient song I wanted to sample too. I can’t remember it though. Wait, your accent sounds like Funeral’s accent. I wonder if he’s from North Carolina! I had a friend who was on my record label that I started when I was sixteen who was from there. I don’t know if I ever heard him talk, though. 

**A record label?**

It wasn’t shit. We weren’t doing anything. We had a nice catalog but that was about it. It was just a little Bandcamp label. Nothing serious. (singing TikTok songs) sorry I do that a lot. I just sing random songs.

<iframe width="100%" height="300" scrolling="no" frameborder="no" allow="autoplay" src="https://w.soundcloud.com/player/?url=https%3A//api.soundcloud.com/tracks/910543633&color=%23ff5500&auto_play=false&hide_related=false&show_comments=true&show_user=true&show_reposts=false&show_teaser=true&visual=true"></iframe><div style="font-size: 10px; color: #cccccc;line-break: anywhere;word-break: normal;overflow: hidden;white-space: nowrap;text-overflow: ellipsis; font-family: Interstate,Lucida Grande,Lucida Sans Unicode,Lucida Sans,Garuda,Verdana,Tahoma,sans-serif;font-weight: 100;"><a href="https://soundcloud.com/blackwinterwells" title="blackwinterwells" target="_blank" style="color: #cccccc; text-decoration: none;">blackwinterwells</a> · <a href="https://soundcloud.com/blackwinterwells/algae-feat-dolly-okthxbb" title="algae feat. dolly (okthxbb+lyustra)" target="_blank" style="color: #cccccc; text-decoration: none;">algae feat. dolly (okthxbb+lyustra)</a></div>

**That’s what I do but with your song “Algae” 24/7.**

Did you like dolly’s verse on the new album? I love having dolly on track one of the albums. I’ve done it twice now, so it’s like a thing. I think the evil album is just going to be me though. I’m going to scream on it, and get Johnnascus and 8485 to scream on it. But I’m going to write all their parts and do a Kanye thing. He put out like six good albums, he could retire now and be done. I’m going to be in the old folks’ home with a little eight track and a Stratocaster making all the old people angry, like making up all the words and freestyling.

**Is it weird being boxed into a certain label?**

I just think it’s silly! They don’t have ears. Like if they listen to “Omen” and they’re like this is a pop song. I’m like, what the fuck is wrong with you. I guess Nine Inch Nails are hyperpop too then. It’s just like pitched up vocals, pop, and catchy. That doesn’t apply to me. I’m making experimental sing-songs. I think the word is dying, I think we’re moving on. Hyperpop Daily is crazy though. It’s funny because their name is Hyperpop Daily but they only talk about Kankan and Summrs.

**They make me laugh sometimes though. Is there anything else you want to talk about? **

I don’t know! Everyone buy my CD! Vinyl’s soon. 

**That’s so exciting!** 

*-Mars/Maria Kate*


blackwinterwells on her new album, anime, and catching the drain flu

![Screen Shot 2022-04-20 at 9.35.09 AM.png](https://finals.blog/api/uploads/Screen_Shot_2022_04_20_at_9_35_09_AM_4dce5f48ab.png)

**Today we bring you a guest post by new Finals writer Mars/Maria Kate, whom you may know [from SoundCloud](https://soundcloud.com/marscantdrive) or writing on [108 Mics](https://108mics.com/2021/11/28/2021-interviews-dylan-longworth/). Maria chatted with rapper Dani Kiyoko and we are grateful to feature their talk –– thanks Maria!**

-Andrew 

-- 

Louisiana-born rapper/producer Dani Kiyoko isn’t hopping on the trends: he’s pioneering them while staying true to his sound. Kiyoko is intertwined throughout countless communities, collectives, and subgenres. Back in May of 2021, they created VampPlugg (a subgenre consisting of darker r&b/plugg) which spread pretty instantly throughout the scene (check out
his “everything VampPlugg” playlist on SoundCloud [here](https://soundcloud.com/danikiyoko/sets/everything-vamp-plugg)). Another style from Kiyoko is the REAL $TREET RUNNA tape from 2021, featuring remixes of familiar beats like New Boyz’s “You’re a Jerk” and other older sounds most Gen-Z kids likely had downloaded on our middle school iPods. Now, he’s releasing singles tagged #streetrunnaz muzik, continuing to encapsulate that mid-2000s sound. After creating for half a decade, he’s managed to stay consistent and experimental, operating hand-in-hand with SoundCloud legends like Braxton Knight and BBY GOYARD. 

<iframe width="100%" height="300" scrolling="no" frameborder="no" allow="autoplay" src="https://w.soundcloud.com/player/?url=https%3A//api.soundcloud.com/tracks/1080905119&color=%23ff5500&auto_play=false&hide_related=false&show_comments=true&show_user=true&show_reposts=false&show_teaser=true&visual=true"></iframe><div style="font-size: 10px; color: #cccccc;line-break: anywhere;word-break: normal;overflow: hidden;white-space: nowrap;text-overflow: ellipsis; font-family: Interstate,Lucida Grande,Lucida Sans Unicode,Lucida Sans,Garuda,Verdana,Tahoma,sans-serif;font-weight: 100;"><a href="https://soundcloud.com/danikiyoko" title="DANI KIYOKO" target="_blank" style="color: #cccccc; text-decoration: none;">DANI KIYOKO</a> · <a href="https://soundcloud.com/danikiyoko/youre-a-jerk-freestlye-ivc" title="YOU&#x27;RE A JERK FREESTLYE #VODECi 🍷" target="_blank" style="color: #cccccc; text-decoration: none;">YOU&#x27;RE A JERK FREESTLYE #VODECi 🍷</a></div>

I’ve been following Kiyoko since the beginning, watching their constant evolution and growing influence. He was kind enough to send me a beat pack and an invite to his IVC collective when I was still making music with my Apple Earbuds and Garage Band back in 2019. They’re always working with diverse groups of artists with the sole purpose of creating something new and
impressive. In this interview, it was a pleasure to learn more about the inspiration behind his work and what’s keeping him motivated, even though we’re both pretty shy. Here’s our phone conversation transcribed below.

-Mars/Maria Kate

![Screen Shot 2022-04-20 at 9.35.25 AM.png](https://finals.blog/api/uploads/Screen_Shot_2022_04_20_at_9_35_25_AM_0556d0a7e5.png)

**How long have you been making music?**

I started making music when I was like, twelve. But I didn’t really take it seriously until I was like sixteen.

**Were you posting it?**

Yeah, I was like posting it. Some of it is still up. Some people like, downloaded it and saved it. I don’t know why. I kept it up to show progress, and how far I came.

**On Soundcloud right?**

Yeah, Soundcloud, right. and YouTube.

**Do you still have a collective?**

Yeah. I still have it. But the way things are rolling for me right now, I’d just rather be alone. A lot of people don’t put in the same amount of work I do or they’re just really lazy. But I am working on a small label right now!

**I’m excited for that!**

Thank you!

**Tell me about your new tape that came out.**

I don’t really know what to say. I just put music that I listen to and put it in my own style. I try to
be different and do different stuff.

**What was your favorite sample?**

Probably the first song. With the Deftones sample. I like it a lot. I listened to it, heard the beat and I was like, “I didn’t know he [Sauron] made a beat with the Deftones sample. Ima hop on this right now!”

<iframe width="100%" height="300" scrolling="no" frameborder="no" allow="autoplay" src="https://w.soundcloud.com/player/?url=https%3A//api.soundcloud.com/playlists/1400466784&color=%23ff5500&auto_play=false&hide_related=false&show_comments=true&show_user=true&show_reposts=false&show_teaser=true&visual=true"></iframe><div style="font-size: 10px; color: #cccccc;line-break: anywhere;word-break: normal;overflow: hidden;white-space: nowrap;text-overflow: ellipsis; font-family: Interstate,Lucida Grande,Lucida Sans Unicode,Lucida Sans,Garuda,Verdana,Tahoma,sans-serif;font-weight: 100;"><a href="https://soundcloud.com/danikiyoko" title="DANI KIYOKO" target="_blank" style="color: #cccccc; text-decoration: none;">DANI KIYOKO</a> · <a href="https://soundcloud.com/danikiyoko/sets/lest-we-forget" title="lest we forget" target="_blank" style="color: #cccccc; text-decoration: none;">lest we forget</a></div>

**Was that the process for the whole tape?**

Yeah. I don’t really write music. I just do what I do. I made everything in a day pretty much. That’s how I do most of my music to be honest, I just sit there and make song after song. I don’t really have a lot on my mind, I just have a way with words, I guess.

**Do you write the lyrics down?**

I just do it as I go! I never try and write anything down. Writing for me takes my energy away when I’m trying to make a song.

**Who’s your favorite person you’ve produced for?**

Probably BBY GOYARD. He just fits my sound really well.

**One of your tweets made me laugh recently. The “It’s cus I don’t make hyperpop and never planned on it” one.**

Yeah, it’s really like that! I would like, talk to people, and they’d be like “I really like your music, but it’s not something I’d listen to.” and I’m like, I get it... but have you like... tried? I guess it’s just like, I’m not where a certain viewer is from so they wouldn’t really understand.

**Does that affect what you’re making?**

I guess it’s like, the music where I’m from and grew up around. It’s very different from what a lot of people on the internet listen to. I don’t really make happy music.

**What is it?**

I would say it’s really like, Southern rap music. That’s what music sounds like down here. No matter what state you go to, it’s gonna be something hard and extreme.

**Where are you from?**

I’m from New Orleans.

**I admire that you don’t change what you’re doing to fit the trend!**

Yeah, I don’t think I’d ever do that! I don’t care what people say to be honest. I just do what I want to do.

**It’s been working out for you. What’s next?**

At the moment, I just wanna get more connections and put out more tapes. That’s pretty much it.

One EP and an album. It’s more emotional than most of my other music. The album is kinda the same, like emotional. There’s a lot of love songs.

**How does it feel when people call what you do influential?**

I kinda love that. That’s one goal of mine, to influence people. I don’t care about the money, but when money comes there’s more opportunities to take care of my family.

**Do you feel like that’s what you’re doing now?**

I feel like I’m sort of doing that on a low level. It could be much bigger than it is right now.

**You were one of the first music people I met!**

Everybody be thinking I’m kind of mean! I guess because I’m quiet, like I don’t really talk to that many people. I try to ignore the drama.

**Is there anyone you want to collab with though?**

To be honest, Lil Wayne! That’s number one. With anyone else, I don’t really care much at the moment. With music, I kinda get bored after a while. If I wanna hear a certain sound, I know no one else is gonna do it, so I just do it. That’s kinda where I’m at right now. He’s one of my number one inspiration with the way I go about everything.

**Do you wanna talk about VampPlugg?**

I made it on accident to be honest. Like, I was making a beat one night and I was like this is kinda trash. I saved it, then I closed it. I came back to it the next day and then started messing with the sound like this is fire. I started putting out the beats and I just went with it. A lot of artists started seeing it and messing with it, and a lot of artists hopped on it. But a lot of people hated on it because they don’t like hearing anything different.

**Really?**

Yeah, I don’t like close-minded people.

**Did anyone ever claim you didn’t come up with it?**

Yeah! It was like a joke between me and a friend.

**Are you moving on from that sound?**

I wanna keep doing it, I keep changing it more and more. But eventually I wanna move on because things get played out quick!

**Everything changes so fast now!**

I guess people wanna set trends, stay inside one box. I see people just making music now. They’re not even trying! They just make it so that it sounds good on TikTok. It’s so weir

Checking In With Dani Kiyoko

An Interview with Chloe Hotline

![DTFdelvey1.jpg](https://finals.blog/api/uploads/DT_Fdelvey1_914ecf729b.jpg)

Named after the first recorded speculative bubble, [Dutch Tulip Financial](https://dtf.nyc/) is a NYC-based streetwear brand that's been on my mind heavy since I got hip a little while back through the Antithesis store in Manhattan. Unlike most fashion which is about advancing the status quo and joining a herd, DTF requires your brain to work for the brand to click, and is about criticizing "the way things are." 

Founder/designer Moonwhan Park's graphics generally reference exploitation by dominant culture, governments, unduly powerful conglomerates and oligarchies. The results are funny and trenchant, playing into consumer culture in a way that is also about calling out and laughing at the absurdity of living in a rich man's world. Streetwear as artistic commentary. 

To dig into DTF further I hopped on Zoom for a cool hour and 15 minutes with Mr. Park, the one-man show behind the whole shebang (design, photography, sales, everything). We talked about Korean politics, his famous antiestablishment poet grandpa, the best place to eat intestines in NYC, and Oldboy, among other topics.   

*All images by Moonwhan Park*  

![DTFdelvey.jpg](https://finals.blog/api/uploads/DT_Fdelvey_e0ae40a90f.jpg)

**You just dropped your Anna Delvey capsule. What do you like about her?**

She’s a scammer, so I don’t want to put her on a pedestal necessarily. But what she represents and exploited very well was the worshipping of wealth. Not just what she did with her fake heiress background, but wherever you go, people worship wealth and we give wealthy people power. And why? Why is Elon Musk so powerful, just because he’s rich? It’s the same in Korea. Korea has jaebol (a handful of companies that run the country like an oligarchy), and there’s some sort of irrational reverence for them. “There he goes, he’s jaebol, he’s Lee family, Chung family…” But I always had this doubt. 

When I grew up in Korea, I went to this elementary school that was private and had a lot of kids from those jaebol families, or extended jaebol families. And since we were young, nobody had self-awareness or an identity of “I’m rich, fuck you.” We just mingled normally. But as I grew up I saw how my other friends revered those kids, and acted differently when I was with them compared to by myself. I thought it was so weird cuz I knew those guys when we were eight years old. Nowadays, I only keep up with a few of those rich-rich guys, but seeing the weird class structure, how they carried themselves as they got older, how people treated them, I thought it was weird. In my mind they’re not better or worse than us. But they have an aura of coming from an important family. Anna Delvey created that same kind of persona by faking that she was from a European aristocratic family. So I thought it was funny, and I thought it was a reflection of modern society that she was able to succeed as much as she did. 

**DTF graphics reference economics, social control, exploitation –– what draws you to these themes? You talked about growing up in the shadow of jaebol but what else got you interested in these topics?**

Two things. One of the friends I’m still friends with, and is a great guy, and of course is in private equity now — he used to live here and still comes to New York frequently on business trips. In 2018/2019 he came here and hit me up, and brought me to some random Upper East Side intersection. And he was pretty stoked about what he just experienced. He was telling me about this social club, and how he was either the first or second Korean guy to get into it. Five interviews, 12 reference letters. Just to be in this exclusive thing. Super secretive. I don’t even know if it had a name. It was for, I guess, white guys. Mainly. He was telling me that the guys in it were hedge fund billionaires, and when he got in there, he saw those guys wearing robes and playing tennis and chilling, and making behind the scenes deals. I thought that was movie stuff. But when I learned that was real, that was a direct inspiration for DTF. 

I was like, OK, let me make a conceptual construct where I can inject different storylines into it. I do t-shirts because I didn’t have any money. And it also came out of my desire to differentiate what I do from streetwear as a whole. It was when Virgil Abloh was like “Streetwear is an art,” 2017/2018, and I was like, I can’t just slap my logo on a shirt and not add to the conversation. So I was trying to find my lane. And the stories I heard from my private equity friends and business school friends who worked at investment banks were inspirations for me. There are a lot of brands who do social commentary, but they don’t use finance or capitalism to tell stories. So I thought that could be my lane, with the help of the stories I hear from the guys who are in that industry. 

The second big inspiration was my grandfather, a really well respected poet in Korea who passed away in the ‘90s. If you grow up in Korea you know his name: Tu-Jin Park. He has a memorial museum, he’s a big figure in the Korean art world in the 20th century. I lived with him, and he had this aura around him. Even when I was little, I was like, I should not bother him — he’s doing something great. He was the type to wake up at 5 am, meditate for an hour, do calligraphy, have a real small meal, pray for an hour, write for seven hours straight, eat another small meal, meditate, do yoga, and go to sleep. Korea now, we’re doing OK, but in the ‘60s, ‘70s, ‘80s that wasn’t the case. We were under a harsh political regime. And when he was young, we were under Japanese colonization. His whole thing was rebellious, socially. And he paid for his views. He got shot at by police, and tortured by the Korean version of the CIA. He got shot at during 4/19, a big democratic event in Korea in the early 1960s. The regime was headed by Sing-Man Lee, who was doing what Putin is doing, illegally extending his term three or four times. But my grandfather was a professor and his students went to the streets to protest, and police opened fire. And my grandfather ran out. He was pretty well known even then, and dared them to shoot him. And they still shot at him. He had the acclaim, the respect, but the life…my dad and grandmother lived in poverty. It was hardship all the time. I always knew I wouldn’t be as good as him, whatever I did. I saw him as an archetype, solitary genius figure. He didn’t get swayed by any temptations, money or anything. He was like a monk. In the ‘70s there was another military regime headed by Chung-Hee Park. And to sway my grandfather, the first lady wanted him to be her private literature tutor. And obviously my grandfather said, Fuck off. Park’s term went on for 19 years, it was like the dark ages. 

So I felt like, I’ll never be able to do that. I’m going to lead a normal life, study business, and be normal — go to a respectable school, wear a suit. I tried. I tried to be a normal Korean. That was me working at Samsung, which is where I met my wife, who was Korean-American, which is how I got to New York, when I was 30. But actually I did have another small business thing at the time. I was doing it with a friend, when I came to New York. And my friend ran off with the money! 

DTF came about because I literally hit rock bottom. I was broke in New York, stabbed in the back by my friend. It was a soul-searching moment, 2017/2018. I only had money for screen printing a small run. And I knew I wanted to be adjacent to art, if not be an artist myself. I always viewed myself as someone that’s not worthy of being an artist, because of my grandfather. But when I hit rock bottom, I was like eff it, I’m going to treat this as an art project. In this day and age, some people might see it as art adjacent. 

So that’s a long story, but my friends and somewhat of a corporate background gave me the inspiration for DTF, and as far as my approach to things, it’s super shaped by my grandfather. 

![DTFdebtjam.jpg](https://finals.blog/api/uploads/DT_Fdebtjam_0fc86039dc.jpg)

**That’s fascinating. What’s your favorite poem of your grandfather’s?**

It’s called “The Sun.” It’s really hard to translate. One thing that separates him from other poets who wrote about the sun, is the tone is very authoritative towards the sun. He’s ordering the sun to rise up. Like hey, sun, get the fuck out and rise up. I’m butchering it. But I heard from literature critics you don’t typically see that approach. It’s more poets singing about the beauty of the sun, in a romantic way. But at the time Korea was between the Korean War and the Japanese colonization, dark times, and metaphorically he wanted the sun to rise up and break through for the situation in Korea. Urgently. His poems really reflect his personality, very masculine, strong words, very convincing. He wasn’t like a “My life sucks guy,” it was no melancholy, just (punches his hand three times). 

**I’m interested in Korean history. The ‘70s in particular was such a crazy time -– the Chung-Hee Park years. Really terrible for human rights, people going to jail for having long hair, and for countercultural figures like your grandfather it was very dangerous. But it was also when Korea rebuilt itself from a colonized and war-torn country that was previously agricultural, to something resembling today where they are a modern global superpower or close to that. And there’s this rationalization that I really hate, which is that you have to break eggs to make an omelet. That you don’t get that development and advancement without treating people like garbage. You have to be bad to people to succeed in the grand scheme. **

It gets short term results. (Heavy sigh) I identify as Korean. I don’t have plans to get American citizenship. And it hurts me, because for me, the two steps that epitomize the current status of Korea as far as how people feel, the the pressure they’re under, is we have the highest rate of suicide, and the lowest birth rate. That means people don’t want to live. That shows you how much stress and pressure there is. 

**Do you think that’s a byproduct of the 1970s culture?**

Has to be. Not a direct byproduct of it, maybe, but yeah. It’s also such a compressed country, so dense, and homogenous, monoculture…so the frame of reference is too close. Everybody grows up the same, looks the same, put under a pretty limited set of predetermined life paths. You have to be this or that, or you’re done. I felt, being there, that I was always being compared to someone. New York is pretty crazy, but because we’re all so different – Asian, Black, Latinos, white people – I personally don’t have the same criteria of judging myself based on other people. Everyone is doing their own thing. The sheer diversity helps me instinctively not compare myself. But in Korea, the degrees of separation are like two or three. Everybody knows each other. And it’s not taboo to comment on people’s situations. “Hey you look like you gained weight.” Or “Hey I heard you lost your job.” All those things compounded. Just my theory. There’s a village-like culture, maybe stemming from the agricultural aspect, where everybody was in poverty, and everyone had to share meals. We’re all in this together, no boundaries type situation. 

**On a hopeful note, what inspires you about today’s youth?** 

I love Greta Thunberg and Generation Z. Millennials –– technically I’m a millennial –– we were kind of a go with the flow generation. I want Generation Z to give us shit. We deserve it. We should do better. And they know that, and I like that about Gen Z. As far as fashion, if they’re doing more Depop, more trading instead of buying, that’s good. I don’t sell that many t-shirts so I don’t have that big of a guilt [environmentally], but it’s still a guilt. I looked at recycled cotton blanks and tried it, but when I make them, to make my money back I have to charge more, and people don’t buy it. So those recycled cotton ideas are only for the companies that already have a lot of money. Gildan and Hanes –– I want those guys to make more accessible recycled cotton options. I think we’ll get there, because Gen Z wants more eco-friendly options, and that’s who will be buying things going forward. As far as big changes and shift, I don’t know, I feel almost powerless but the least I could do is listen and not try to silence when Gen Z are speaking out. They’re the ones who have to deal with all our bullshit, so they have the right to give us shit. As far as making things better, I have to do my part, I’m a dad, I’m always thinking about my son.

![DTFmofear.jpg](https://finals.blog/api/uploads/DT_Fmofear_fcdf168314.jpg)

**OK lightning round, eight questions real quick. Favorite Korean food in NYC?**

There’s this place called [Gopchang BBQ](https://www.gopchangbbq.com/) I think there’s one in Manhattan Koreatown and one in Flushing. It’s intestines. LIke Korean BBQ, but with only intestines instead. They clean it out of course. It’s not anything glamorous at all, but because of the cleaning process, in Korea it’s not cheap. But because nobody outside of Koreans care for those parts of the animal in the US, it’s cheaper here. You eat it as lettuce wraps with white rice. 

**Favorite brand?**

To be honest I don’t have one. I respect a lot of brands, Cav Empt. I don’t own any Off-White or LV because it’s too expensive, but I really respected Virgil Abloh. The totality of what he did. Me not having any favorite brands is more to do with being a dad now. I don’t care anymore. Technically I’m in fashion, but I look at kid’s shoes more. As opposed to “There’s this new drop.” I don’t care about any of that. My son needs shoes. That’s where I’m at. 

**Favorite movie?**

Oldboy. 

**I always think about the wallpaper in that movie, the honeycomb pattern that’s supposed to drive you insane.** 

Yeah yeah. 

**Favorite musician?**

Tupac. I’m still that generation. 

**Favorite album?**

Makaveli.

**Favorite shoe?**

Air Jordan 8, black OG. With the straps, and some crazy graphic pattern at the heel. It was the first Air Jordan that I had.

**Favorite t-shirt that you own?**

One that I customized at an event with my son’s name on it, B-E-N-N-Y. 

**Last one: favorite politician?**

Probably Chun-Ha Chang. He was before my time, but he was the anti-military regime democratic fighter. He was the leader of the opposition to President Park. Of course he died due to “mysterious causes.” One of my father’s best friends is the son of that guy. His friend had to suffer, after his dad’s death. He couldn’t get regular jobs. He was this super smart guy but nobody was hiring him. He did odd jobs his whole life. And they joke about it now, because my dad’s friend is a jack of all trades because of bouncing from this job to that job. He’s like the ultimate handyman now. He accepted it as his fate, and likes it, in a way. By all accounts though his dad was a very respectable guy. If he didn’t get assassinated, maybe Koreans’ recent history could have gone a different direction. A huge what-if situation. 


Featured Post

Finals Best of Digicore 2020

Posts

blackwinterwells on her new album, anime, and catching the drain flu

Checking In With Dani Kiyoko

An Interview with Chloe Hotline

The Dutch Tulip Financial Interview

An Interview with CJ808 and QU!$7 of 2K3