Photos by Kenyatta Meadows

maassai is one of the most crucial rappers in Brooklyn because she raps about gentrification with fire and poignancy, because she raps on beats that are the future, made by JWords or maybe her cousin Laron, and because she raps about mental interiors with investigative rigor when so much music is surface level.

She also sings beautifully, in a no-frills alto, and that's what she tells Finals' Tyler Burston her next project is going to be all about because "I'm an R&B girl down." We applaud the range and are happy to once again speak to maassai (I previously interviewed her group with JWords, H31R). She has been musically quiet in the past year and tells us she is ready to drop in June.

Here she is in conversation with Tyler Burston/Merkeba, discussing her hip-hop mom, the moment she knew she was a rapper, and maintaining integrity in music over the years.

This interview has been edited for clarity.

-Andrew

So, what was your most recent musical experience?

I guess my most recent musical experience was last night. Once I got home from The Lot radio, I just started going through some of the new stuff that I've made, and tweaking and editing it. I'm in an interesting space right now creatively because I'm in a space where I have something to drop, but I'm in that perfectionist phase where it's been a minute since I created those things. So now I'm kind of like, get fatigued of it and I'm kind of like, damn, like, do I even like this anymore? And so I keep trying to fix things. I'm trying to like practice letting it go. So my recent, my recent musical experiences have been a little toxic, to be honest. They've been a little like, ah, you know. So yeah, that's my most recent.

I understand what you mean by being a perfectionist and to make sure you fuck with it before you put it out. Have you ever felt, you don't have to say what it is, but have you ever felt like you put anything out that you didn't fully fuck with? Or are you always with whatever you decide to release?

Mm. I think I've definitely had to let go of certain things, something because I will do that forever. I feel like I have some projects that, a part of it was that it wasn't perfect. I drop little EPs on bandcamp, like, one called Unsounded Points Of View. And then I dropped a recent EP Deconstruction. A lot of it was about that imperfection. Like a lot of this wasn't mixed, wasn't mastered. It was just kind of like, yeah, I'm just putting this out. This was just like, you know, kind of a vibe. So I do embrace that sometimes.

How do you imagine your framework for what Construction means and then what the Deconstruction means with your most recent work?

Construction was very much literally building on this idea of like, like Black people being the construction workers of this terrain and just taking up space, what that means as gentrification...like they're literally taking up space. And, you know, a city that I was born and raised in and what it means for me to take up space as the original construction worker of this space, of this terrain. And then it got a little personal. Me understanding my inner space. Understanding what all of that is made up of. And I think Deconstruction was kind of like an end of an era. Where I'm picking apart all of that. I feel like I came to a phase where my artist statement for that vision was complete. So Deconstruction was the last iteration of it where I really delved into gentrification and those things in a more actual way than the first two projects. I really got into it for real, like on some thesis shit for Deconstruction. Whereas I feel like the first two projects were a little bit more abstract in how they were speaking about these things.

What was one of the first experiences that you had just as a human being that lets you know that art was going to be a major part of your life?

That's a good question. So I grew up in church. So from very early on, you know, singing in the choir, praise dance, like all the, you know, there was already a multidisciplinary factor from very early on, where I almost felt like I didn't really have a choice. When I really, really decided to like, become an artist, I was probably like around 11. I think I had just entered into middle school. That's when I first became like aware. Like I started realizing things about my life and that art could actually be an outlet for me to escape and feel a little bit better, from like putting it on the pages. So I had this journal, which I'm so sad, I lost that journal, in like 8th grade. But like, It was so beautiful too. It was a beautiful journal. Yeah, I think that through writing, when I first started rapping – because I started with poetry, and that was really cool – but when I first started rapping, the first time I got a verse off, that feeling that I felt of like, wow, this is fire. I just kept chasing that. And so I think that was the one where I realized like, yeah, this is this is it for me actually. Like, I'm, I'm about to be a rapper.

I want to know a little bit more about that moment because I like to ask artists about the the very like the superhero origin story and how they became who they are. So, like set the scene for me of that first time.

Okay, so... Yeah, I feel like I was just at home writing, and again I was already familiar with poetry. Like in school, we had poetry club. I was already being told like, okay, you're good at this. But I also loved rap at that time. I wasn't making raps myself, but like I grew up around hip hop culture. Like, my mom raps. My older cousins rap. So like I was surrounded by it. I was like, let me just, let me, let me try to write a rap for real, you know? The 1st time I did it, I think I got a lot of anger off. It wasn't really an angry rap, but based on how I was feeling in middle school, I was very much that, angsty preteen. And so just getting it off, like, I'm fire, like, you know, that vibe did something for me. It did something special for me. And I think from that moment, I was just like, okay, yeah, this is it for me. I'm going to keep at this.

Was there like any particular beat or it's just like a cappella?

I don't think so. I think I just wrote it to nothing. The metronome in my head. was like, yeah, like this is how it's gonna go. And then I went to the studio because, again, I had family who was in music. So I was like, I want to go to the studio. I went to the studio. I laid it, and I was like, yeah, this is tough. You know?

We're all happy that happened.

Granted, it wasn't that good. Like, looking back at it, it was like pretty terrible, but like, yeah, that's how I felt. I feel like any middle schooler rapping, like should it even be that good?

Mentioning your mom is a rapper. That's actually super cool. What was it like? Growing up with a mom who rapped in any capacity?

My mom was like, a super cool mom, this in general. She rapped. She's very fashionable, had a bunch of piercings and tattoos. So my mom come in, you know, to school for parents conference or whatever and I was always like really proud to like be like, yeah, that's my mom, like, she’s not like you, basic ass moms. But then having an artist mother also comes with other things too, you know? I think the experience in a nutshell was from very early on, I really humanized my mom in a way that I feel like maybe other kids who don't have artist moms don't. Early on because she was so in touch with herself as a human being. And not as just being a mother, that like, I also had to recognize her as a human being too, you know? What I will say is that she gave me some jewels and sauce and like, I cannot owe it only to myself at all because I feel like my mother and like my older cousins and stuff definitely laid the foundation for me to really understand the framework of what hip-hop is. And for me to take it to a place where now I can call myself experimental. Because they really laid that framework for me.

That's also very beautiful, especially the idea of art making us humanized people that can’t easily be reduced down to their, especially women, just reduced down to their maternal role.

Exactly. Yeah, no, I really connect to that. I feel like I'm only doing that as I've gotten older, but when I see my family produce art in general, that definitely allows me to understand like, oh, they really are just like me in a way.

I think some people feel like an artificial separation between artistry and the family. Not everybody. But it seems to be very integrated for you, which makes me want to ask, what was the first music that your family introduced you to that you remember connecting to? And what was the first music you found by yourself?

First music my family connected me to. There's like a couple of different ways I could go here. So, because it was very multifaceted. I grew up in large part with my grandmother also who was a gospel and jazz vocalist. Like I said, my family was really into hip hop. Growing up in New York City, my grandfather is Panamanian, and he's Panamanian by way of Jamaica. So a lot of the hip hop influence was very much also influenced by Jamaican music. I would say that my family was very much more so on the roots, reggae hip hop vibe. In a similar way to The Fugees maybe was. I would say that's kind of the vibe that I grew up on. Listening to a lot of dancehall, reggae stuff, infused with the hip-hop stuff is definitely a core memory for me. When it comes to like being saturated in hip-hop culture. I can also remember, heavily for my grandmother, hearing, like, jazz records play in the crib and being in church, hearing a lot of gospel. These were all major things. And then my mom also sings as well. So there's a lot of artsy stuff going on. So I was listening to a lot of soul music. Musiq Soulchild, D'Angelo, Erica, Jill Scott, all those Aquarians, like all of that stuff was being played heavily in my household.

On my own, major turning points for me were, like, finding Stevie Wonder. I already knew about Stevie Wonder, and Stevie Wonder was sometimes played at home as well, but for some reason, when I turned like 18, like, I got re-put on, and I was just like, wow, like, this is just, amazing. Major turning point for me. Jay Dilla, in high school, major turning point for me. Wanting to experiment a little bit more with the rap stuff. And then I would say, actually, Hiatus Coyote. Hiatus Coyote was actually a major turning point for me, coming out of high school because they were making so much stuff that was like in odd time signatures and I was super into that. Hearing that in a way that flowed broadened my concept of music, for sure.

If I think about the colors I imagine when I listen to Hiatus Coyote, and the colors that listen to your music, they're very similar. Do you think there's an influence that like nobody would ever guess was one of yours?

I don't know. I honestly don't know because I feel like a lot of my influences kind of throw people off. Because even when I'm like, for instance, like, I love Brandy. Like, I'm one of those. Right. And I feel like you should be able to hear it. But some people probably wouldn't. Because I'd be in my rap bag, and a lot of people don't realize how much of an R&B head I am. I'm an R&B head down. I love R&B and I love Brandy down. So like, there's a lot of times where people were like, I didn't realize that you were so into that type of stuff or like even when it comes to like dancehall and like Caribbean music. People were like, oh, wow, I did not realize. But yeah I love Vybz Cartel. I feel like sometimes people don't imagine range with artists. But you know, clearly we're human beings.

You've been an artist for a fairly long time, like actually probably longer than I can imagine. You’re an artist in New York City, where there's a 1000 things going on, and you received a lot of attention at different points in the last couple years for that. So I want to know. How do you keep yourself protected, physically, spiritually, as you put your art into the world, and maintain your integrity as so much noise is added to your system.

That's a wild question right there. Because, I mean, there's been times where I haven't been able to keep myself protected in the best way. And so I think that with age, I've learned ways to do so. There's a lot of things that come with being an artist. Being someone who people perceive as having notoriety or perceived as like having something, you know, can sometimes be, like, having a light also means that you have, like, a target on your head. Because it's illuminated. I think keeping myself protected for me has just been like, trying to be like a real human being. I'm really not with the clout chasing, superficial relationship type of thing. I'm really into having authentic dynamics with people, and if I feel like it's not authentic, then I'm not gonna continue on that path. Just trying to stay a real human being and not getting caught up in like, what the scene means or like, what it means to have a certain rank in the scene or whatever the case may be. That's not my concern at all. I really just want to make stuff that I like and hope that people can resonate with it also. And that's really it, to be honest.

It seems like such an obvious kind of answer, but it's actually kind of hard. I've been thinking a lot about how weird parasocial relationships are because you can't avoid it sometimes with social media, you literally have access to people. But sometimes when I meet people who I used to see as a more public figure, I'm like, all these forms of hierarchy that we can easily imagine just really don't exist. And you only actually understand the way that everything came together and works once you completely detach from that. But that can have a lot of implications. When it comes to how we understand each other and capitalism and stuff like that. Because everything is kind of ranked around money and things of that nature. Being a real human being is harder than it should be.

And that's another thing too, when you mention parasocial relationships and social media. I made a major switch, actually, on social media that is like actually a telltale thing of what you just asked me. There was a certain year where I decided that I wasn't posting anything on social media that was not related to my art itself because I felt like there was this meshing, or false sense of intimacy, when I was sharing a lot. I was like, I'm a Gemini. I could talk down. I'll talk my shit. You know what I'm saying? So I used to be on social media, just being like, ah, you know, and like, and not that that wasn't authentic. But then I realized that people would develop a false sense of intimacy with me because I'm giving like too much of myself. And that whole avatar thing got real weird. So I was like, actually, I'm not doing that no more. I think I'm moving towards a space now where I haven't shared much about my personal self or like my personality. Like people don't know that I'm actually like silly. I'm super silly, but people take me really seriously. It starts to feel like, damn, like, this is becoming the avatar now that I'm like, this serious rapper. So I'm starting to get more into like sharing when I think it's necessary on social media. So, yeah.

Similar to how they don't imagine range when it comes to what people are listening to or influenced by, it's just very easy to kind of commodify a human being into whatever persona they give on these songs. It's just easy to be like, we can't really, we don't know you. We can't imagine anything else. I find that with a lot of people I meet, what you'll get in person and what you'll get in a record might be complete opposite reflections, actually, or very contrasting reflections, because it takes a lot to get to this space when you're about to write. That could be a very specific sliver you, that needs to be there in a concentrated way.

When it comes to your music, is there any recent development in terms of your artistic practice that deeply excites you?

I would say yes. I am about to drop a couple of songs, potentially an EP, that is mostly singing. So, very R&B-centered. And that is something that excites me and also kind of scares me a little bit. Because singing is so vulnerable and then I'm talking a lot about love and relationships and that's not a bag that I'm necessarily used to. At least in terms of the stuff that I've put out. But I'm excited to show this other very real and genuine side of me because I do feel like I put out a lot of the real hard hitting stuff, and get into the feels. Like I said, I'm an RB girl down. So I'm excited about that. And then otherwise, like with art in general, I'm really excited to get more into performance art. And movement in general. I love to dance and I love theater. I'm a theater kid at heart. I went to high school for theater. So, bridging those gaps is like something that is really fun for me to think about and plan right now. All of that stuff is coming pretty soon.

What are the other practices that you feel like are essential actually to the music being made that's not making music literally?

I'm very conceptual as an artist in general. So a lot of the times when I'm coming up with ideas for my music, I'm also coming up with like worlds. So that has a lot to do with performance and a lot to do with creative direction. Visuals, those types of things. I don't always get to put it out the way that I want to because I don't always have the resources to do so. So, that's been the major challenge in this all. But I would say that movement is so essential to my being and my well-being. Being able to feel the music with my whole body really highlights and stamps the power of music for me and why I love it so much. When I can feel it in my whole body, Everything just makes sense. So I would say movement is like a really big component for me. And I'm really excited to start to show that more, within the art that I put out. Because you catch me outside, you'll see. But I want to make that a part of the practice that I put out to the world. I feel like that's something I've been just thinking about more, as I get older and move more. I'm like, wait, sometimes, I listen to music and it's almost a discomfort if I can't move to it. Like if I'm not allowing myself to fully enjoy it. Then I'm like, okay, I'm not just listening with my brain. I'm overloading my brain.

So, flip side of the question: Is there any musical thing you've discovered completely outside of you that also deeply excites you?

I guess listening to jazz music, I want to start going to jams again, which I have kind of started doing recently, because just listening to instruments being played and people improvising, that live improvisational factor. I wouldn't say it's completely outside of the realm of what I do or who I am as an artist, but I will say that it's very inspiring and crucial to cultivating this spirit of collaboration and creation with other people, and that's something that I crave right now. Being in a real vibe with other artists and just making stuff just because we actually believe in what we're making, and not anything else, you know?

Oh, exactly.

I feel like that only becomes more valuable as the infrastructure for artists to actually come together and make music with each other gets more rare. I thought about that a lot in terms of, listen, I find myself listening to more records made by multiple people than just like one production, and it's really impossible to replicate energy between people. It's almost easier to make something really beautiful when everybody's energy is together and you’re not thinking too much, but feeling a lot.

I actually was looking at your Instagram to prepare for this, and I kept track on all the different places you've been able to go to, because of music, whether it be you or you and JWords. So, what is your favorite place you’ve ever been to, because of music specifically?

For me, one of the most special places that I've been because of the music was Guatemala. Because it's just so strange. Not like Guatemala is necessarily strange, but I feel like, hip hop artists going into Guatemala to perform is not a frequent thing that happens. And so the fact that music got me to go there, I feel like it was just a really enriching experience. And supposedly I was like maybe the second or third woman rapper to like visit Guatemala from the States. It was truly a different culture, you know? When I was traveling in Europe, I felt some of those ways, but like also like they're just so used to it. Like, experimental music, they uphold it so much there. Guatemala was definitely a very interesting experience.

I really liked and thought it was appropriate that it was you and JWords that went, took it outside of the first world, I guess, or the global north, because especially when it comes to the European circuit and between the US, it can get honestly very white. So when I saw that, I was like, that makes sense. And I'm glad it was those women too. Like, I'm really happy about that. I guess I'll end it off by saying, where has your curiosity been leading you lately, and this could encapsulate anything?

I’m really curious about psychology and the way that brains work. And I'm really curious about dreams. I'm really curious about the mysteries of existence, the things that we can't really explain that happen. In a more uh, concrete way. I'm really curious about what it means to live outside of this country. So that's been like a major thing of my life right now, like just getting the fuck out of here.